WEBVTT 00:00:09.620 --> 00:00:12.161 Hi Katja here. You have 00:00:12.161 --> 00:00:13.681 heard all eight episodes 00:00:13.681 --> 00:00:16.220 of Toxic Tantra. 00:00:16.560 --> 00:00:18.281 How exciting our research on the 00:00:18.281 --> 00:00:20.001 yoga movement was, my colleague 00:00:20.001 --> 00:00:21.721 Christiane Havranek tells you in 00:00:21.721 --> 00:00:22.341 this behind-the- 00:00:22.341 --> 00:00:24.601 scenes, in conversation with 00:00:24.601 --> 00:00:26.161 Viktoria Koopmann of 11KM, 00:00:26.161 --> 00:00:28.980 the day-show podcast. 00:00:29.060 --> 00:00:30.581 There, journalists report 00:00:30.581 --> 00:00:31.961 on their exciting research 00:00:31.961 --> 00:00:32.541 from Monday 00:00:32.541 --> 00:00:34.500 to Friday. 00:00:34.500 --> 00:00:36.000 Listen to it! 00:00:41.120 --> 00:00:43.360 Abuse of power and manipulation. 00:00:43.360 --> 00:00:45.041 This is by the outgoing women of the 00:00:45.041 --> 00:00:47.180 yoga movement, Atmanen. 00:00:47.180 --> 00:00:48.681 Katja and Christiane 00:00:48.681 --> 00:00:50.760 have tried to figure out what 00:00:50.760 --> 00:00:52.321 the accusations are and 00:00:52.321 --> 00:00:54.221 how the system is said 00:00:54.221 --> 00:00:55.700 to have worked. 00:00:55.700 --> 00:00:57.781 So let us dive into this difficult 00:00:57.781 --> 00:01:00.081 and legally sensitive 00:01:00.081 --> 00:01:02.220 research here at FKM. 00:01:02.220 --> 00:01:03.420 Hi to Christiane. 00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:04.920 and hi. 00:01:06.420 --> 00:01:08.140 My name is Viktoria Koopmann. 00:01:08.140 --> 00:01:10.321 Christiane, take us 00:01:10.321 --> 00:01:12.760 a few months back. 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:14.940 In November 2023. 00:01:20.730 --> 00:01:23.650 So, in France, in Paris, in a 00:01:23.650 --> 00:01:26.210 suburb among others, there are 00:01:26.210 --> 00:01:30.130 175 police officers on the road. 00:01:30.130 --> 00:01:32.110 You are looking for a man. 00:01:32.110 --> 00:01:34.391 You want to arrest him 00:01:34.391 --> 00:01:35.891 that day. 00:01:44.770 --> 00:01:48.871 It was a raid and the Paris 00:01:48.871 --> 00:01:50.590 prosecutor’s office investigated. 00:01:50.590 --> 00:01:51.351 00:01:51.351 --> 00:01:52.591 There are various 00:01:52.591 --> 00:01:55.730 charges, human trafficking, 00:01:55.730 --> 00:01:56.831 kidnapping in 00:01:56.831 --> 00:01:58.111 an organized gang, 00:01:58.111 --> 00:02:00.791 rape and abuse 00:02:00.791 --> 00:02:01.911 of trust of 00:02:01.911 --> 00:02:03.770 protector. 00:02:03.830 --> 00:02:05.651 And they are then in an 00:02:05.651 --> 00:02:08.231 apartment complex in a Paris 00:02:08.231 --> 00:02:10.351 suburb and eventually 00:02:10.351 --> 00:02:11.851 find it. 00:02:11.990 --> 00:02:14.471 They also visited several 00:02:14.471 --> 00:02:17.251 buildings and found 00:02:17.251 --> 00:02:19.631 not only him, but over 00:02:19.631 --> 00:02:22.231 50 women. 00:02:22.231 --> 00:02:24.831 These women were housed 00:02:24.831 --> 00:02:27.431 in very tight and unhygienic 00:02:27.431 --> 00:02:30.030 conditions. 00:02:30.830 --> 00:02:32.591 They were also taken 00:02:32.591 --> 00:02:34.250 out of these homes. 00:02:34.250 --> 00:02:36.390 And one man was arrested. 00:02:36.390 --> 00:02:37.670 Who is this? 00:02:37.670 --> 00:02:40.171 He is called Gregorian Bivolaru 00:02:40.171 --> 00:02:42.931 and is a spiritual teacher, 00:02:42.931 --> 00:02:46.090 a yoga teacher. 00:02:47.540 --> 00:02:49.701 He founded a yoga school 00:02:49.701 --> 00:02:51.381 in Romania more than 00:02:51.381 --> 00:02:52.941 30 years ago. 00:02:52.941 --> 00:02:54.160 They say they are the largest 00:02:54.160 --> 00:02:55.141 yoga school in Europe, 00:02:55.141 --> 00:02:58.400 they call themselves Misa, and they 00:02:58.500 --> 00:03:00.201 have just developed a kind 00:03:00.201 --> 00:03:02.121 of teaching and they 00:03:02.121 --> 00:03:04.401 also use different religions, 00:03:04.401 --> 00:03:06.200 one can say. 00:03:06.200 --> 00:03:07.941 So it’s a bit of a wild 00:03:07.941 --> 00:03:09.761 mixture of Christianity, 00:03:09.761 --> 00:03:13.300 Hinduism, Buddhism too. 00:03:13.660 --> 00:03:15.941 And this yoga movement has spread 00:03:15.941 --> 00:03:17.701 across several countries 00:03:17.701 --> 00:03:18.541 as well. 00:03:18.541 --> 00:03:20.921 It is estimated that there are about 00:03:20.921 --> 00:03:21.760 30,000 people who 00:03:21.760 --> 00:03:23.820 are attached to this movement. 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:26.421 And this yoga movement is under 00:03:26.421 --> 00:03:27.480 the roof bandage, which 00:03:27.480 --> 00:03:29.300 is called Atman. 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:34.280 During our research we have 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:35.780 met some people who call 00:03:35.780 --> 00:03:38.620 him a Guru, even as 00:03:38.620 --> 00:03:41.120 such a kind of God. 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:41.921 It sounds like a 00:03:41.921 --> 00:03:45.460 sect leader. Yes though. 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:47.401 We also interviewed Misa’ 00:03:47.401 --> 00:03:49.561 s press spokeswoman, 00:03:49.561 --> 00:03:51.721 who says he’s not 00:03:51.721 --> 00:03:53.581 her guru, but a yoga 00:03:53.581 --> 00:03:56.540 teacher. 00:03:58.810 --> 00:03:59.971 A short step back, so I think 00:03:59.971 --> 00:04:02.111 many know about yoga, 00:04:02.111 --> 00:04:04.251 but in this case it is also 00:04:04.251 --> 00:04:05.751 about Tantra Yoga, 00:04:05.751 --> 00:04:08.091 so I think that comes from 00:04:08.091 --> 00:04:09.911 Indian philosophy, also has 00:04:09.911 --> 00:04:11.891 something to do with spirituality, 00:04:11.891 --> 00:04:13.911 but also with sex, 00:04:13.911 --> 00:04:15.471 right? 00:04:15.471 --> 00:04:18.010 Yes, that is also part of it. 00:04:18.010 --> 00:04:18.891 So it’s also about a complete 00:04:18.891 --> 00:04:19.671 philosophy of 00:04:19.671 --> 00:04:21.991 life, but also something 00:04:21.991 --> 00:04:25.051 like having very long 00:04:25.051 --> 00:04:26.870 sex. 00:04:27.390 --> 00:04:28.931 In a certain, also spiritual 00:04:28.931 --> 00:04:30.891 way, that is, just fulfilled, 00:04:30.891 --> 00:04:33.071 spiritual, almost 00:04:33.071 --> 00:04:35.030 sacred sex. 00:04:35.030 --> 00:04:36.431 What many have told us is 00:04:36.431 --> 00:04:38.291 that they should overcome 00:04:38.291 --> 00:04:41.111 their jealousy, for example, 00:04:41.111 --> 00:04:43.751 or that they had multiple 00:04:43.751 --> 00:04:47.650 partners at the time. 00:04:47.690 --> 00:04:50.811 So far, so well, he has 00:04:50.811 --> 00:04:52.331 now been arrested with 00:04:52.331 --> 00:04:55.870 these 175 officials, this 00:04:55.870 --> 00:04:56.731 giant council 00:04:56.731 --> 00:04:58.450 here, this arrest. 00:04:59.030 --> 00:05:00.930 What did you think at that moment? 00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:03.251 I thought, oh my God, 00:05:03.251 --> 00:05:06.171 the Paris prosecutor’ 00:05:06.171 --> 00:05:07.711 s office told us 58 women, 00:05:07.711 --> 00:05:10.070 including one German. 00:05:10.270 --> 00:05:12.051 And these descriptions of the 00:05:12.051 --> 00:05:13.071 apartments with 00:05:13.071 --> 00:05:14.871 unhygienic conditions and 00:05:14.871 --> 00:05:17.290 tight, I thought, crisp, that 00:05:17.290 --> 00:05:19.451 is exactly what women 00:05:19.451 --> 00:05:21.470 have already told us. 00:05:21.470 --> 00:05:23.171 Because we were already in 00:05:23.171 --> 00:05:24.751 the middle of the research 00:05:24.751 --> 00:05:26.811 at the time and had already 00:05:26.811 --> 00:05:29.030 spoken with women who were 00:05:29.110 --> 00:05:32.311 brought to these apartments 00:05:32.311 --> 00:05:34.791 to Gregory Bivoularou and 00:05:34.791 --> 00:05:37.471 had an hour-long Tantra 00:05:37.471 --> 00:05:39.711 ritual with him, because 00:05:39.711 --> 00:05:42.411 they promised themselves 00:05:42.411 --> 00:05:43.471 such an illumination. 00:05:43.471 --> 00:05:45.050 00:05:45.550 --> 00:05:47.231 So, the police in France 00:05:47.231 --> 00:05:49.171 are capturing the spiritual 00:05:49.171 --> 00:05:51.451 leader of an international 00:05:51.451 --> 00:05:53.031 yoga movement and when you 00:05:53.031 --> 00:05:55.270 see this, you will realize 00:05:55.270 --> 00:05:56.591 that it has to 00:05:56.591 --> 00:05:58.151 do with our research 00:05:58.151 --> 00:05:59.150 in Germany. 00:05:59.150 --> 00:06:00.890 This is known to you. 00:06:01.110 --> 00:06:02.551 For a year, you have 00:06:02.551 --> 00:06:04.031 been following the 00:06:04.031 --> 00:06:05.831 footsteps of this yoga 00:06:05.831 --> 00:06:07.590 teacher. 00:06:07.590 --> 00:06:09.091 In what context did you first 00:06:09.091 --> 00:06:11.250 hear of Bivou Larou? 00:06:13.070 --> 00:06:14.931 The first note was given 00:06:14.931 --> 00:06:16.631 by an audience from 00:06:16.631 --> 00:06:18.470 the Soulfanger podcast. 00:06:18.470 --> 00:06:18.511 And 00:06:18.511 --> 00:06:19.791 it comes from Munich and 00:06:19.791 --> 00:06:21.211 said, so hey, I have experienced 00:06:21.211 --> 00:06:24.271 some crasses here at a 00:06:24.271 --> 00:06:25.951 yoga school. We met her then 00:06:25.951 --> 00:06:27.211 and she told us that 00:06:27.211 --> 00:06:28.171 she was just doing 00:06:28.171 --> 00:06:29.411 yoga, then later just 00:06:29.411 --> 00:06:31.791 various Tantra rituals 00:06:31.791 --> 00:06:34.691 and so step by step the thresholds 00:06:34.691 --> 00:06:36.131 were lowered until 00:06:36.131 --> 00:06:37.631 at some point, she says, 00:06:37.631 --> 00:06:40.111 she drove to Paris, to 00:06:40.111 --> 00:06:41.510 this secret 00:06:41.510 --> 00:06:43.231 place at Bivoularo and 00:06:43.231 --> 00:06:44.831 met him there, at 00:06:44.831 --> 00:06:48.790 some point with him in bed 00:06:48.990 --> 00:06:50.111 and he asked her 00:06:50.111 --> 00:06:51.691 if you want to experience 00:06:51.691 --> 00:06:53.031 spiritual expansion. 00:06:53.031 --> 00:06:54.950 00:06:59.220 --> 00:07:00.800 Okay, wow 00:07:01.340 --> 00:07:03.641 But could you find evidence 00:07:03.641 --> 00:07:05.240 for your descriptions, 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.161 which you always 00:07:06.161 --> 00:07:07.281 need for journalistic 00:07:07.281 --> 00:07:08.340 reporting? 00:07:08.340 --> 00:07:10.820 Especially in such situations, where 00:07:10.820 --> 00:07:12.581 there are often no witnesses and 00:07:12.581 --> 00:07:14.221 there is a testimony against 00:07:14.221 --> 00:07:15.721 a testimony? 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:17.360 How did you go there? 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:18.541 We have, of course, investigated 00:07:18.541 --> 00:07:20.041 all possible 00:07:20.041 --> 00:07:21.360 things. 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:22.941 She had told me that she 00:07:22.941 --> 00:07:24.321 had been taken to 00:07:24.321 --> 00:07:25.881 Paris and in such an apartment 00:07:25.881 --> 00:07:26.841 we had her write 00:07:26.841 --> 00:07:27.860 a landscape. 00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:29.161 What was this apartment 00:07:29.161 --> 00:07:31.381 like, that she might 00:07:31.381 --> 00:07:32.881 still name us whom she 00:07:32.881 --> 00:07:33.880 can remember. 00:07:33.880 --> 00:07:34.941 And then we started 00:07:34.941 --> 00:07:36.980 to look, maybe we will 00:07:36.980 --> 00:07:38.261 find more outbounders 00:07:38.261 --> 00:07:40.280 and outbounders. 00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:42.520 And that was super difficult 00:07:42.520 --> 00:07:44.000 since first time to find women 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:45.501 who are willing to talk 00:07:45.501 --> 00:07:46.660 to us about it. 00:07:46.660 --> 00:07:47.601 So we were there, for 00:07:47.601 --> 00:07:49.681 example, in such closed groups, 00:07:49.681 --> 00:07:51.681 and on various social media platforms, 00:07:51.681 --> 00:07:53.940 and some of the people 00:07:53.940 --> 00:07:55.601 we spoke with were so 00:07:55.601 --> 00:07:56.660 trapped in this 00:07:56.660 --> 00:07:58.501 world of thought that 00:07:58.501 --> 00:08:00.760 they were still afraid, 00:08:00.760 --> 00:08:01.821 for example, that something 00:08:01.821 --> 00:08:03.321 bad would happen 00:08:03.500 --> 00:08:04.261 now when they told 00:08:04.261 --> 00:08:05.761 them the secrets 00:08:05.761 --> 00:08:07.401 they learned 00:08:07.401 --> 00:08:08.981 at the yoga 00:08:08.981 --> 00:08:10.720 school. 00:08:10.820 --> 00:08:12.441 And so it is very, very 00:08:12.441 --> 00:08:13.920 difficult for some 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:15.460 to talk about it. 00:08:16.980 --> 00:08:17.921 Others were also 00:08:17.921 --> 00:08:19.380 traumatized. 00:08:19.380 --> 00:08:20.281 I remember one email, 00:08:20.281 --> 00:08:21.181 one said, it is not like 00:08:21.181 --> 00:08:22.401 I was telling about 00:08:22.401 --> 00:08:23.541 a car accident now, 00:08:23.541 --> 00:08:26.501 but there are bizarre, extreme 00:08:26.501 --> 00:08:28.501 things happened and 00:08:28.501 --> 00:08:30.781 a very, very big factor 00:08:30.781 --> 00:08:32.241 was then the 00:08:32.241 --> 00:08:34.140 shame. 00:08:36.830 --> 00:08:38.331 And those, who then finally 00:08:38.331 --> 00:08:39.751 agreed to be ready, three 00:08:39.751 --> 00:08:41.710 women we found who gave us very, very 00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:44.351 long interviews in which 00:08:44.351 --> 00:08:46.331 they gave us very strong 00:08:46.331 --> 00:08:48.631 insight into their emotional 00:08:48.631 --> 00:08:50.111 life and indeed also 00:08:50.111 --> 00:08:51.751 in really intimate things, 00:08:51.751 --> 00:08:55.130 all of which had a message 00:08:55.130 --> 00:08:57.310 in principle. 00:08:57.310 --> 00:08:59.791 They wanted the outside world 00:08:59.791 --> 00:09:01.911 to know what had happened 00:09:01.911 --> 00:09:03.411 to them. 00:09:04.420 --> 00:09:05.441 It is not only about 00:09:05.441 --> 00:09:06.801 this one yoga movement, 00:09:06.801 --> 00:09:08.801 but mechanisms, since 00:09:08.801 --> 00:09:11.061 everyone can learn a lot 00:09:11.061 --> 00:09:13.141 for themselves, to 00:09:13.141 --> 00:09:14.661 hear these stories and 00:09:14.661 --> 00:09:16.681 listen to them in 00:09:16.681 --> 00:09:18.520 such detail. 00:09:22.050 --> 00:09:23.631 So shame is of course 00:09:23.631 --> 00:09:24.810 a big topic, but 00:09:24.810 --> 00:09:26.151 the other is that now, 00:09:26.151 --> 00:09:27.971 of course, we can’t play 00:09:27.971 --> 00:09:31.111 their memories one by 00:09:31.111 --> 00:09:33.650 one in a big podcast. 00:09:33.650 --> 00:09:35.071 Simply so. We must, of 00:09:35.071 --> 00:09:36.350 course, look closely at who 00:09:36.350 --> 00:09:38.411 is being accused here, with what 00:09:38.411 --> 00:09:40.290 accusations. 00:09:41.870 --> 00:09:43.591 That was the biggest 00:09:43.591 --> 00:09:45.191 challenge in this 00:09:45.191 --> 00:09:46.910 research. 00:09:46.910 --> 00:09:48.531 So to see what is right 00:09:48.531 --> 00:09:50.690 about it, what may not? 00:09:50.690 --> 00:09:52.051 Look at the case from 00:09:52.051 --> 00:09:52.870 all sides. 00:09:52.870 --> 00:09:54.171 Because this is very important 00:09:54.171 --> 00:09:55.390 to understand. 00:09:55.390 --> 00:09:56.531 We, as journalists, 00:09:56.531 --> 00:09:58.071 cannot simply claim 00:09:58.071 --> 00:09:59.290 that, but 00:09:59.290 --> 00:10:00.471 we publish only 00:10:00.471 --> 00:10:03.190 if we can prove it. 00:10:03.190 --> 00:10:05.210 How did you make sure that 00:10:05.210 --> 00:10:06.430 it was all right? 00:10:06.430 --> 00:10:08.711 A very accurate and good evidence 00:10:08.711 --> 00:10:09.671 would be in that 00:10:09.671 --> 00:10:11.471 case a large number of 00:10:11.471 --> 00:10:13.791 witnesses, who quite consistently also 00:10:13.791 --> 00:10:15.631 in details, without being 00:10:15.631 --> 00:10:16.771 asked directly about it, but 00:10:16.771 --> 00:10:18.211 that they tell it of themselves, quite 00:10:18.211 --> 00:10:20.231 consistently report 00:10:20.231 --> 00:10:21.611 the same thing, although 00:10:21.611 --> 00:10:22.591 they do not know each 00:10:22.591 --> 00:10:24.010 other. 00:10:24.010 --> 00:10:25.331 And if it is about somewhat 00:10:25.331 --> 00:10:27.491 fierce accusations and 00:10:27.491 --> 00:10:30.031 depictions, like here, then, I can 00:10:30.031 --> 00:10:31.351 imagine, it won’t please 00:10:31.351 --> 00:10:32.150 everyone. 00:10:32.150 --> 00:10:34.031 Specifically in this example of yoga 00:10:34.031 --> 00:10:36.471 school, which could defend themselves 00:10:36.471 --> 00:10:37.590 legally. 00:10:37.590 --> 00:10:38.890 How have you dealt with it? 00:10:38.890 --> 00:10:40.411 We at the Bavarian Radio have 00:10:40.411 --> 00:10:41.951 a house lawyer and we knew 00:10:41.951 --> 00:10:43.091 from the beginning 00:10:43.091 --> 00:10:45.851 that this research must be 00:10:45.851 --> 00:10:47.470 done very, very carefully. 00:10:47.470 --> 00:10:48.311 We always do this 00:10:48.311 --> 00:10:50.411 very carefully. But in 00:10:50.411 --> 00:10:52.050 that case we knew that 00:10:52.050 --> 00:10:54.411 this Romanian yoga school 00:10:54.411 --> 00:10:56.330 Misa had tried to 00:10:56.330 --> 00:10:58.410 sue the Bavarian radio. 00:10:58.410 --> 00:10:59.611 This was a few years 00:10:59.611 --> 00:11:02.311 ago when Vivolaru was 00:11:02.311 --> 00:11:03.990 sought by Interpol. 00:11:03.990 --> 00:11:05.331 And that media houses are 00:11:05.331 --> 00:11:07.170 sued is not uncommon. 00:11:07.170 --> 00:11:08.131 And even having 00:11:08.131 --> 00:11:10.011 a house judge or a judge 00:11:10.011 --> 00:11:11.391 is anything other 00:11:11.391 --> 00:11:12.511 than unusual. 00:11:12.511 --> 00:11:14.011 That is even the norm. This belongs 00:11:14.011 --> 00:11:14.730 to it. 00:11:14.730 --> 00:11:15.871 exactly So now especially 00:11:15.871 --> 00:11:17.251 with us, I am at BR Recherche, 00:11:17.251 --> 00:11:19.271 the investigative team of the 00:11:19.271 --> 00:11:21.030 Bavarian broadcaster. 00:11:21.090 --> 00:11:22.831 For us, it is not unusual 00:11:22.831 --> 00:11:24.431 even that the other side 00:11:24.431 --> 00:11:26.950 is trying to defend itself. 00:11:26.950 --> 00:11:28.531 I would look 00:11:28.531 --> 00:11:30.930 at it in this way later. 00:11:30.930 --> 00:11:32.210 We knew they 00:11:32.210 --> 00:11:34.031 tried, the complaint 00:11:34.031 --> 00:11:35.830 was rejected. 00:11:35.830 --> 00:11:36.931 But we could then also 00:11:36.931 --> 00:11:37.711 adjust a little on what is 00:11:37.711 --> 00:11:39.330 the line of defense and 00:11:39.690 --> 00:11:42.451 we knew okay that will also 00:11:42.451 --> 00:11:44.311 be a kind of hard work just 00:11:44.311 --> 00:11:46.910 to talk with as many witnesses and 00:11:46.910 --> 00:11:49.411 witnesses as possible and then 00:11:49.411 --> 00:11:51.911 just to gain their trust 00:11:51.911 --> 00:11:54.471 to talk with them long and just 00:11:54.471 --> 00:11:56.631 to look what have the 00:11:56.631 --> 00:11:59.231 still on the evidence photos 00:11:59.231 --> 00:12:02.551 videos emails everything 00:12:02.551 --> 00:12:03.491 possible 00:12:03.491 --> 00:12:05.230 can be bills. 00:12:09.800 --> 00:12:11.500 To summarize this briefly. 00:12:11.500 --> 00:12:13.001 At first you had the clue 00:12:13.001 --> 00:12:14.901 of one listener, their 00:12:14.901 --> 00:12:17.441 statements, and then you 00:12:17.441 --> 00:12:18.461 searched for 00:12:18.461 --> 00:12:20.001 other women and found 00:12:20.001 --> 00:12:21.280 them. 00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:23.601 They have very similar 00:12:23.601 --> 00:12:25.101 experiences. 00:12:25.300 --> 00:12:28.381 And for the overview, Atman, 00:12:28.381 --> 00:12:30.960 this is the roof of this yoga school. 00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:33.241 The association includes 00:12:33.241 --> 00:12:34.461 schools in different 00:12:34.461 --> 00:12:35.161 countries. 00:12:35.161 --> 00:12:36.901 In Germany it is the German 00:12:36.901 --> 00:12:38.401 Academy for Traditional 00:12:38.401 --> 00:12:42.001 Yoga and in Romania it is the yoga 00:12:42.001 --> 00:12:43.941 school called Misa, which 00:12:43.941 --> 00:12:46.261 founded the Bivolaru 00:12:46.261 --> 00:12:48.660 more than 30 years ago. 00:12:49.060 --> 00:12:50.940 What did you find out? 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:52.401 How plausible is what 00:12:52.401 --> 00:12:53.921 the women report that, 00:12:53.921 --> 00:12:56.561 as they say, they have been manipulated 00:12:56.561 --> 00:12:59.060 and exploited? 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:01.741 According to our research, it is completely 00:13:01.741 --> 00:13:03.021 plausible. 00:13:03.021 --> 00:13:04.881 So we met a woman, for 00:13:04.881 --> 00:13:06.500 example, Natalie, she 00:13:06.500 --> 00:13:09.780 is in her mid-20s, looks 00:13:09.780 --> 00:13:11.001 like a model, 00:13:11.001 --> 00:13:14.201 has a degree in psychology 00:13:14.201 --> 00:13:17.561 and has just gone 00:13:17.561 --> 00:13:19.940 to that yoga school. 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:21.221 At first, she was just 00:13:21.221 --> 00:13:21.941 very interested 00:13:21.941 --> 00:13:23.960 in it, found it exciting. 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:25.581 At the beginning, it is really 00:13:25.581 --> 00:13:30.181 quite normal and super interesting 00:13:30.181 --> 00:13:31.721 and it is all new and there 00:13:31.721 --> 00:13:33.301 is also a completely different 00:13:33.301 --> 00:13:34.601 view of the world 00:13:34.601 --> 00:13:36.320 somewhere. 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:37.861 She first did yoga there, 00:13:37.861 --> 00:13:39.381 then this Tantra Yoga course 00:13:39.381 --> 00:13:43.061 and for the first time felt that 00:13:43.061 --> 00:13:45.080 it was all completely harmless. 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:45.861 But the thing is simple, 00:13:45.861 --> 00:13:47.161 that stops so foolish 00:13:47.161 --> 00:13:49.201 and then you are in and then 00:13:49.201 --> 00:13:50.621 it starts on you as 00:13:50.621 --> 00:13:51.900 you drive to practically, 00:13:51.900 --> 00:13:53.580 just dress in. 00:13:55.410 --> 00:13:56.431 She then went to a yoga 00:13:56.431 --> 00:13:58.851 camp, which has a cult 00:13:58.851 --> 00:14:01.211 status in the yoga movement Romania 00:14:01.211 --> 00:14:02.491 on the Black Sea 00:14:02.491 --> 00:14:04.411 Coast and there she was also 00:14:04.411 --> 00:14:05.891 told, be careful, this is something 00:14:05.891 --> 00:14:07.671 very special and there was 00:14:07.671 --> 00:14:09.931 just that kind of classes, 00:14:09.931 --> 00:14:11.271 so according to the motto, 00:14:11.271 --> 00:14:12.991 you can suppress your period, 00:14:12.991 --> 00:14:14.851 you can enlarge your breasts with 00:14:14.851 --> 00:14:17.030 the help of yoga, but it 00:14:17.030 --> 00:14:20.191 was just about Gregorian 00:14:20.191 --> 00:14:22.330 Bivularo. 00:14:22.330 --> 00:14:23.371 She tells me that 00:14:23.371 --> 00:14:24.890 she had just learned there how 00:14:24.890 --> 00:14:27.110 great it is and life- 00:14:27.350 --> 00:14:29.051 changing to meet him and also 00:14:29.051 --> 00:14:31.491 remembers a piece of writing 00:14:31.491 --> 00:14:34.271 that was presented to her and there 00:14:34.271 --> 00:14:36.171 was the question you want 00:14:36.171 --> 00:14:38.531 to meet the guru the only 00:14:38.531 --> 00:14:39.791 answer that is somehow okay 00:14:39.791 --> 00:14:40.451 is of course 00:14:40.451 --> 00:14:42.291 yes but if you are attached 00:14:42.291 --> 00:14:43.411 there you will also be directly 00:14:43.411 --> 00:14:45.931 thrown out how you feel when you 00:14:45.931 --> 00:14:46.831 are thinking about 00:14:46.831 --> 00:14:48.711 meeting your guru or of 00:14:48.711 --> 00:14:50.871 course also the one so 00:14:50.871 --> 00:14:51.631 then things so 00:14:51.631 --> 00:14:53.270 pronounced, somehow so 00:14:53.270 --> 00:14:57.190 excited, blissful, ecstatic, 00:14:57.370 --> 00:14:59.510 such. 00:14:59.830 --> 00:15:01.331 And exactly, so there are 00:15:01.331 --> 00:15:02.731 only positive things, you can’ 00:15:02.731 --> 00:15:04.231 t cross anything negative. 00:15:05.750 --> 00:15:10.151 And then you have to specify time 00:15:10.151 --> 00:15:12.290 periods if you have time 00:15:12.290 --> 00:15:13.651 to meet him. And this 00:15:13.651 --> 00:15:16.431 Guru is Gregorian Bivolaru. 00:15:16.431 --> 00:15:19.131 exactly And first she thought, 00:15:19.131 --> 00:15:21.091 ah, I don’t know, I don’t 00:15:21.091 --> 00:15:22.770 know it at all. 00:15:22.770 --> 00:15:23.851 But then, after 00:15:23.851 --> 00:15:25.991 she had gone to this camp 00:15:25.991 --> 00:15:28.051 and she felt like 00:15:28.051 --> 00:15:29.911 I’d hopefully learn 00:15:29.911 --> 00:15:30.951 great things 00:15:30.951 --> 00:15:34.790 from this wise man. 00:15:35.030 --> 00:15:35.891 Then she said I want to drive. 00:15:35.891 --> 00:15:40.681 She has driven from the Black Sea 00:15:40.681 --> 00:15:42.701 Coast to Paris in a car with 00:15:42.701 --> 00:15:45.341 several others along with 00:15:45.341 --> 00:15:47.840 the from the At one parking lot 00:15:48.140 --> 00:15:51.541 there was then a car change, 00:15:51.541 --> 00:15:53.941 she is taken to another car, 00:15:53.941 --> 00:15:56.520 she gets a glued sunglasses, a fisherman's 00:15:56.520 --> 00:15:58.341 hat, not knowing where it 00:15:58.341 --> 00:15:59.820 goes, then is taken to an apartment, 00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:01.581 so a sort of waiting room for 00:16:01.581 --> 00:16:02.661 women who want to go 00:16:02.661 --> 00:16:04.821 to her guru, what was 00:16:04.821 --> 00:16:07.801 like a mattress camp where she waited 00:16:07.801 --> 00:16:10.561 for two weeks, but also completely 00:16:10.561 --> 00:16:12.801 shut off from the outside 00:16:12.801 --> 00:16:16.921 world because she gave her 00:16:16.921 --> 00:16:18.321 cell phone, her passport 00:16:18.321 --> 00:16:19.941 and then one day is taken 00:16:19.941 --> 00:16:21.561 to the apartment by 00:16:21.561 --> 00:16:23.680 the guru where 00:16:23.680 --> 00:16:26.321 she is waiting for more 00:16:26.321 --> 00:16:27.621 than a week and then 00:16:27.621 --> 00:16:29.581 he stands in front 00:16:29.581 --> 00:16:31.081 of her in 00:16:31.081 --> 00:16:33.121 a purple bathing 00:16:33.121 --> 00:16:35.060 jacket. 00:16:35.060 --> 00:16:36.940 That is how she tells us. 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:38.201 I can remember 00:16:38.201 --> 00:16:40.000 the moment he 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.340 took off his coat. 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:42.681 I mean, just 00:16:42.681 --> 00:16:44.340 an old man. 00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:47.360 And my reaction was like that. 00:16:48.300 --> 00:16:50.460 And what happens then? 00:16:50.660 --> 00:16:52.720 Very long sex. 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:54.421 Short note, the description is now 00:16:54.421 --> 00:16:57.220 becoming very explicit. 00:16:58.040 --> 00:17:00.100 And she remembers that 00:17:00.100 --> 00:17:03.401 she was there around ten 00:17:03.401 --> 00:17:05.140 o’clock and thought, another 00:17:05.140 --> 00:17:06.720 hour, another hour, you can 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:08.220 do it, you can do it. 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:09.800 It was really just like 00:17:10.120 --> 00:17:11.561 that, okay, just keep going, 00:17:11.561 --> 00:17:13.040 just keep going. 00:17:13.040 --> 00:17:14.220 So it wasn’t at all that I 00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:17.161 was, yes, so really was 00:17:17.161 --> 00:17:17.980 somewhere there. 00:17:17.980 --> 00:17:19.560 So that was the thing. 00:17:24.860 --> 00:17:26.380 And the other women? 00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:27.861 So we just talked 00:17:27.861 --> 00:17:29.441 to more than 20 00:17:29.441 --> 00:17:31.241 outbounders and outbounders, 00:17:31.241 --> 00:17:33.821 and eight of them were 00:17:33.821 --> 00:17:36.361 actually at Bivolaru 00:17:36.361 --> 00:17:37.721 and took the entire 00:17:37.721 --> 00:17:39.840 path. 00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:40.661 It was important 00:17:40.661 --> 00:17:42.121 for us to have such 00:17:42.121 --> 00:17:43.940 a system. 00:17:43.940 --> 00:17:45.741 So we made such a 00:17:45.741 --> 00:17:46.960 table. 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:47.681 Actually, what 00:17:47.681 --> 00:17:48.581 are the accusations? 00:17:48.581 --> 00:17:49.860 00:17:49.860 --> 00:17:50.941 And then often 00:17:50.941 --> 00:17:52.460 there are patterns. 00:17:52.460 --> 00:17:53.761 It is often like a puzzle that 00:17:53.761 --> 00:17:56.041 you can put together. So, for example, 00:17:56.041 --> 00:17:59.161 one told me, yes, I was in 00:17:59.161 --> 00:18:01.441 the yoga class and then 00:18:01.441 --> 00:18:02.861 I was told I could suppress 00:18:02.861 --> 00:18:04.401 my period with yoga 00:18:04.401 --> 00:18:06.220 exercises. 00:18:06.340 --> 00:18:08.340 But I can only remember. 00:18:08.340 --> 00:18:08.801 Then you talk 00:18:08.801 --> 00:18:09.761 to the next one, who tells 00:18:09.761 --> 00:18:11.080 it again and says, hey, 00:18:11.080 --> 00:18:11.981 I still have this, the 00:18:11.981 --> 00:18:12.841 teaching material, 00:18:12.841 --> 00:18:14.880 I will photograph you. 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:15.761 And one thing I have 00:18:15.761 --> 00:18:17.741 to say, we are not reporting 00:18:17.741 --> 00:18:19.481 all the allegations we 00:18:19.481 --> 00:18:22.200 have received information about. 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:23.701 In some we have actively decided 00:18:23.701 --> 00:18:25.461 against it because we have said 00:18:25.461 --> 00:18:27.361 that is simply too intimate 00:18:27.361 --> 00:18:29.841 now or that is just too 00:18:29.841 --> 00:18:31.741 much beyond the boundaries 00:18:31.741 --> 00:18:33.621 of shame, even from 00:18:33.621 --> 00:18:35.300 our interlocutors. 00:18:35.300 --> 00:18:37.360 We consciously let it go. 00:18:37.360 --> 00:18:38.901 Or it was then that we 00:18:38.901 --> 00:18:40.420 ultimately said for the 00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:42.741 point we did not have enough 00:18:42.741 --> 00:18:44.281 evidence and then we 00:18:44.281 --> 00:18:45.420 let it out. 00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:47.081 Have you seen the 00:18:47.081 --> 00:18:48.361 places where women 00:18:48.361 --> 00:18:50.300 were addressed? 00:18:50.540 --> 00:18:52.081 We wanted to make as much 00:18:52.081 --> 00:18:53.421 of an impression 00:18:53.421 --> 00:18:54.660 as possible. 00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:55.981 We took three trial 00:18:55.981 --> 00:18:58.181 hours, two in Germany 00:18:58.181 --> 00:19:01.441 and one in Romania. 00:19:01.441 --> 00:19:02.560 00:19:02.560 --> 00:19:04.760 And what did you do there? 00:19:04.860 --> 00:19:06.380 I do yoga exercises. 00:19:06.380 --> 00:19:08.561 But what was your impression 00:19:08.561 --> 00:19:10.001 of how this goes on in the 00:19:10.001 --> 00:19:11.681 trial hours, in Romania 00:19:11.681 --> 00:19:12.600 or even in Germany? 00:19:12.600 --> 00:19:14.621 This builds on each other and 00:19:14.621 --> 00:19:15.661 here too, when you read this, 00:19:15.661 --> 00:19:17.000 Attention, Secret 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:18.060 Information. 00:19:18.060 --> 00:19:20.540 So there’s something mysterious, 00:19:20.540 --> 00:19:24.060 mysterious and that’s just, 00:19:24.060 --> 00:19:25.101 we’ve been told, for example, 00:19:25.101 --> 00:19:26.461 in the trial, life is like 00:19:26.461 --> 00:19:27.421 such a kind of Super 00:19:27.421 --> 00:19:29.521 Mario game and to get 00:19:29.521 --> 00:19:32.220 to the next level, you’ 00:19:32.260 --> 00:19:35.220 ll pass spiritual tests. 00:19:35.850 --> 00:19:37.631 This was probably the moment 00:19:37.631 --> 00:19:38.791 when we felt like we 00:19:38.791 --> 00:19:41.090 were closest to Bivolaru, 00:19:41.090 --> 00:19:43.811 because in this trial hour, 00:19:43.811 --> 00:19:45.490 when we were there in Romania, 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:47.470 he was presented to us 00:19:47.550 --> 00:19:49.191 as such a kind of magician 00:19:49.191 --> 00:19:52.850 almost already. 00:19:52.850 --> 00:19:54.571 Then, if you saw in a 00:19:54.571 --> 00:19:56.911 video how he moved a 00:19:56.911 --> 00:19:59.331 compass needle with his 00:19:59.331 --> 00:20:00.911 hands and we ourselves 00:20:00.911 --> 00:20:01.611 took some aura 00:20:01.611 --> 00:20:03.411 measurements. 00:20:03.411 --> 00:20:04.971 So it was a bit 00:20:04.971 --> 00:20:06.390 esoteric. 00:20:06.390 --> 00:20:08.690 It was esoteric, exactly. 00:20:08.730 --> 00:20:10.310 And it is important that 00:20:10.310 --> 00:20:12.151 we not only have a 00:20:12.151 --> 00:20:13.710 verbal narrative, but 00:20:13.710 --> 00:20:14.870 also look at that we 00:20:14.870 --> 00:20:15.551 are examining 00:20:15.551 --> 00:20:17.730 for plausibility. 00:20:17.730 --> 00:20:18.751 We were also in a Telegram 00:20:18.751 --> 00:20:20.730 group, for example, where this 00:20:20.730 --> 00:20:21.651 yoga camp was also 00:20:21.651 --> 00:20:23.471 mentioned and where various 00:20:23.471 --> 00:20:24.511 places were 00:20:24.511 --> 00:20:26.050 then named. 00:20:26.050 --> 00:20:27.311 And we then again compare 00:20:27.311 --> 00:20:28.411 this with the stories 00:20:28.411 --> 00:20:29.831 of Nathalie and 00:20:29.831 --> 00:20:30.931 with our suburban 00:20:30.931 --> 00:20:33.530 research. 00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:39.621 So, that’s a lot of small 00:20:39.621 --> 00:20:42.820 pieces of puzzle, to say so, 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:44.521 indications that all this happened, 00:20:44.521 --> 00:20:46.700 but that’s also explaining 00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:48.601 how it could happen that 00:20:48.601 --> 00:20:50.701 women could possibly 00:20:50.701 --> 00:20:53.000 be drawn in. 00:20:53.180 --> 00:20:56.200 But to prove manipulation, 00:20:56.380 --> 00:20:58.140 I find it difficult. 00:20:58.280 --> 00:20:58.961 What is 00:20:58.961 --> 00:21:01.480 the most important puzzle piece 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:02.361 you have found? 00:21:02.361 --> 00:21:04.321 What we have there, 00:21:04.321 --> 00:21:05.421 for example, I brought you 00:21:05.421 --> 00:21:07.861 here now is a document, there 00:21:07.861 --> 00:21:09.081 is a declaration, it 00:21:09.081 --> 00:21:11.281 is a six-page, I say 00:21:11.281 --> 00:21:13.221 in quotation, contract and 00:21:13.221 --> 00:21:15.381 that is Natalie, of which 00:21:15.381 --> 00:21:17.461 we have already heard, 00:21:17.461 --> 00:21:21.521 was several times with 00:21:21.521 --> 00:21:23.021 her guru. 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:24.141 So that means she wasn’t just 00:21:24.141 --> 00:21:25.681 with him several times, but what 00:21:25.681 --> 00:21:27.341 you just told me about that 00:21:27.341 --> 00:21:29.601 super long Tantra sex session, 00:21:29.601 --> 00:21:31.841 that’s happened several times. 00:21:31.841 --> 00:21:34.201 Just because she just, so 00:21:34.201 --> 00:21:35.681 I speak now in the language 00:21:35.681 --> 00:21:37.500 of this movement, she has 00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:38.800 not managed to overcome 00:21:38.800 --> 00:21:40.461 her ego, overcome her jealousy, 00:21:40.461 --> 00:21:42.501 there were still problems and then, 00:21:42.501 --> 00:21:44.461 so to speak, the advice 00:21:44.461 --> 00:21:46.120 was, go back there 00:21:46.120 --> 00:21:48.061 and then it will 00:21:48.061 --> 00:21:48.660 get better. 00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:49.701 And she felt under 00:21:49.701 --> 00:21:52.661 pressure, and what 00:21:52.661 --> 00:21:54.681 put a lot of pressure 00:21:54.681 --> 00:21:57.641 on her was to sign 00:21:57.641 --> 00:22:00.461 a contract, and she 00:22:00.461 --> 00:22:02.300 did it every time. 00:22:02.300 --> 00:22:03.321 So this is the 00:22:03.321 --> 00:22:04.441 statement I brought to 00:22:04.441 --> 00:22:06.100 you here. 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:07.240 Can you look at. 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.321 Here is the signature person, name, 00:22:10.321 --> 00:22:17.320 date of birth, place of birth. 00:22:17.580 --> 00:22:18.141 I explain 00:22:18.141 --> 00:22:20.460 the following. 00:22:20.560 --> 00:22:22.481 This is the point 00:22:22.481 --> 00:22:27.421 of visiting Grieg. 00:22:27.421 --> 00:22:28.841 Grieg is the cosename 00:22:28.841 --> 00:22:31.200 of Bivoularo. 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.421 And then come all the things 00:22:32.421 --> 00:22:34.320 that are explained that 00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:36.020 happened during the visit. 00:22:36.260 --> 00:22:37.701 I have never been raped by a 00:22:37.701 --> 00:22:39.500 Grieg or any other person. 00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:41.520 I have never been trafficked. 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.080 There was no human trafficking. 00:22:45.280 --> 00:22:47.380 I was not beaten, badly 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.140 treated, forced, cursed, 00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:53.001 insulted or dehumanized. 00:22:53.001 --> 00:22:56.940 00:22:57.060 --> 00:22:58.861 So somehow it puts in the 00:22:58.861 --> 00:23:00.161 room that someone could 00:23:00.161 --> 00:23:01.661 say that. 00:23:01.780 --> 00:23:03.561 Yes, or maybe he has already 00:23:03.561 --> 00:23:05.061 said. 00:23:05.360 --> 00:23:08.580 It is a pressure tool. 00:23:08.580 --> 00:23:09.640 So the women 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:11.281 who signed this then 00:23:11.281 --> 00:23:13.080 say, oh, they have it 00:23:13.080 --> 00:23:14.961 from me. They have me in 00:23:14.961 --> 00:23:16.980 the hand somewhere. 00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:18.781 I have participated. Because 00:23:18.781 --> 00:23:19.260 they felt 00:23:19.260 --> 00:23:21.040 I signed it too. 00:23:21.040 --> 00:23:21.761 I have confirmed 00:23:21.761 --> 00:23:25.020 this in this form of this but 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.500 it is still so, and so it 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:29.701 has been described to 00:23:29.701 --> 00:23:31.400 us by several, on 00:23:31.600 --> 00:23:33.621 paper they have voluntarily 00:23:33.621 --> 00:23:36.160 taken every step. 00:23:36.260 --> 00:23:37.681 This is a very important point, 00:23:37.681 --> 00:23:40.601 because it is a question 00:23:40.601 --> 00:23:42.501 of whether it is criminal. 00:23:42.501 --> 00:23:44.001 00:23:44.100 --> 00:23:46.281 In the criminal law, 00:23:46.281 --> 00:23:47.980 no means no, that is 00:23:47.980 --> 00:23:49.420 clear. 00:23:49.420 --> 00:23:50.681 It is no longer important whether 00:23:50.681 --> 00:23:51.941 the perpetrator threatened 00:23:51.941 --> 00:23:53.641 the victim with violence 00:23:53.641 --> 00:23:56.240 or whether it was used. 00:23:56.320 --> 00:23:57.561 The crucial thing is that this 00:23:57.561 --> 00:23:58.741 sexual act was not wanted and 00:23:58.741 --> 00:24:00.181 that was also recognizable 00:24:00.181 --> 00:24:02.100 for the perpetrator, for 00:24:02.100 --> 00:24:03.461 example because the victim 00:24:03.461 --> 00:24:05.060 cried. 00:24:05.100 --> 00:24:06.001 But we can’ 00:24:06.001 --> 00:24:06.881 t judge now 00:24:06.881 --> 00:24:09.181 whether it was a 00:24:09.181 --> 00:24:11.080 rape or not. 00:24:11.080 --> 00:24:12.480 What I can say with certainty 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:13.721 is that the Paris prosecutor’ 00:24:13.721 --> 00:24:16.780 s office is investigating rape. 00:24:16.800 --> 00:24:18.601 Yes, because in different countries, 00:24:18.601 --> 00:24:19.541 the sexual 00:24:19.541 --> 00:24:20.821 penal law is also 00:24:20.821 --> 00:24:21.801 different. 00:24:21.801 --> 00:24:22.881 There are also 00:24:22.881 --> 00:24:23.761 differences, for example 00:24:23.761 --> 00:24:25.700 between Germany and France. 00:24:25.700 --> 00:24:27.421 And I can also say that 00:24:27.421 --> 00:24:28.801 the investigation has 00:24:28.801 --> 00:24:29.661 now been extended 00:24:29.661 --> 00:24:31.540 to Germany. 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:33.321 The exact content of this 00:24:33.321 --> 00:24:35.381 investigation, the Paris prosecutor’ 00:24:35.381 --> 00:24:36.541 s office did not want 00:24:36.541 --> 00:24:38.140 to tell us. 00:24:38.360 --> 00:24:40.301 But I know of all the women 00:24:40.301 --> 00:24:41.681 who have already filed 00:24:41.681 --> 00:24:44.700 a complaint in Germany. 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:51.101 There are statements from 00:24:51.101 --> 00:24:51.801 many women. 00:24:51.801 --> 00:24:54.700 You have a look at chat groups. 00:24:54.700 --> 00:24:55.681 You have looked 00:24:55.681 --> 00:24:57.121 at yourself, at least, how the 00:24:57.121 --> 00:24:58.880 test hours look. 00:24:59.280 --> 00:25:02.280 The central question is the whole. 00:25:02.280 --> 00:25:03.581 What do the 00:25:03.581 --> 00:25:05.001 leaders say about the things 00:25:05.001 --> 00:25:06.760 you have discovered? 00:25:07.260 --> 00:25:10.400 Let’s start with Gregorian Bivolaru. 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:13.040 What do you say about the accusations? 00:25:13.460 --> 00:25:14.681 This was, of course, a 00:25:14.681 --> 00:25:17.521 big challenge, because 00:25:17.521 --> 00:25:18.941 the Bivolaru 00:25:18.941 --> 00:25:21.000 was in a secret place. 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.680 We knew it somewhere in Paris. 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:26.300 He then went to the prison, where 00:25:26.300 --> 00:25:28.040 he is still today. 00:25:28.100 --> 00:25:29.561 That is why we 00:25:29.561 --> 00:25:32.680 contacted his lawyer. 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:32.941 He also 00:25:32.941 --> 00:25:33.981 confirmed that he was his 00:25:33.981 --> 00:25:35.160 lawyer. 00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:35.781 We have tried several 00:25:35.781 --> 00:25:37.541 times to answer our 00:25:37.541 --> 00:25:40.500 long questionnaire. 00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:43.300 But we did not get a response. 00:25:46.670 --> 00:25:47.431 The only thing 00:25:47.431 --> 00:25:48.611 we read in the French article 00:25:48.611 --> 00:25:51.551 is that Bivoularo said at 00:25:51.551 --> 00:25:53.471 the time of his arrest 00:25:53.471 --> 00:25:54.931 that he was going on 00:25:54.931 --> 00:25:57.390 a political plot, he was 00:25:57.390 --> 00:25:59.571 a spiritual master and the 00:25:59.571 --> 00:26:01.631 women loved him in his 00:26:01.631 --> 00:26:03.691 home after a step 00:26:03.691 --> 00:26:06.530 of initiation is called. 00:26:06.630 --> 00:26:07.751 And his lawyer is also quoted 00:26:07.751 --> 00:26:09.831 as saying Bivoularo’s innocence 00:26:09.831 --> 00:26:11.410 will be proved. 00:26:11.570 --> 00:26:13.231 The lawyer says this, but clearly, 00:26:13.231 --> 00:26:14.531 the presumption of innocence is 00:26:14.531 --> 00:26:16.831 also generally applicable and 00:26:16.831 --> 00:26:18.511 now you have to wait to see if 00:26:18.511 --> 00:26:20.131 the investigators find enough evidence 00:26:20.131 --> 00:26:21.571 and what the investigations 00:26:21.571 --> 00:26:23.630 will eventually result. 00:26:25.930 --> 00:26:26.911 And at least the leaders 00:26:26.911 --> 00:26:27.471 of the yoga movement 00:26:27.471 --> 00:26:29.171 Atman wanted to say something 00:26:29.171 --> 00:26:30.711 about this roof 00:26:30.711 --> 00:26:32.230 bandage? 00:26:32.250 --> 00:26:33.691 We asked for it and then 00:26:33.691 --> 00:26:35.431 received a very short 00:26:35.431 --> 00:26:36.350 email. 00:26:36.350 --> 00:26:36.451 You 00:26:36.451 --> 00:26:38.151 don’t have time to answer, 00:26:38.151 --> 00:26:39.451 but we’ll have to look 00:26:39.451 --> 00:26:41.710 at your website. 00:26:41.790 --> 00:26:43.151 On the website you can 00:26:43.151 --> 00:26:43.991 see that they 00:26:43.991 --> 00:26:46.031 have members schools 00:26:46.031 --> 00:26:48.130 in 30 different countries, 00:26:48.190 --> 00:26:50.791 including Germany. The German 00:26:50.791 --> 00:26:52.431 Academy of Traditional 00:26:52.431 --> 00:26:53.830 Yoga. 00:26:53.830 --> 00:26:55.511 They say they are an independent 00:26:55.511 --> 00:26:56.970 organization. 00:26:56.970 --> 00:26:57.611 Everything 00:26:57.611 --> 00:27:00.010 you offer is voluntary. 00:27:00.010 --> 00:27:02.671 And some had chosen Gregorian Bivoularo 00:27:02.671 --> 00:27:05.450 as their spiritual teacher. 00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:06.731 But this is just 00:27:06.731 --> 00:27:08.051 voluntary and therefore they 00:27:08.051 --> 00:27:08.751 are not a sectarian 00:27:08.751 --> 00:27:11.090 organization. 00:27:11.290 --> 00:27:13.411 And they told us on request that 00:27:13.411 --> 00:27:15.331 they had no knowledge 00:27:15.331 --> 00:27:16.871 that yoga students 00:27:16.871 --> 00:27:18.551 from their academy had 00:27:18.551 --> 00:27:21.271 also gone to Paris to Bivularo 00:27:21.271 --> 00:27:24.191 and manipulation and 00:27:24.191 --> 00:27:25.251 abuse of power, 00:27:25.251 --> 00:27:26.791 they knew nothing 00:27:26.791 --> 00:27:28.291 about it. 00:27:29.950 --> 00:27:31.991 And another member of the association 00:27:31.991 --> 00:27:33.931 is the Romanian yoga school 00:27:33.931 --> 00:27:36.991 Misa and since Nathalie 00:27:36.991 --> 00:27:39.011 was at Misa and many others, 00:27:39.011 --> 00:27:41.170 for example, we had 00:27:41.170 --> 00:27:41.991 a very, very 00:27:41.991 --> 00:27:43.370 long, detailed, 00:27:43.370 --> 00:27:45.531 three-hour conversation. 00:27:45.531 --> 00:27:46.910 00:27:46.910 --> 00:27:48.311 And they had some 00:27:48.311 --> 00:27:50.431 surprising and interesting 00:27:50.431 --> 00:27:52.410 answers for us. 00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:53.571 They were also willing 00:27:53.571 --> 00:27:54.871 to speak 00:27:54.871 --> 00:27:56.371 publicly. 00:27:56.430 --> 00:27:58.930 And what did they tell you? 00:27:59.090 --> 00:28:00.171 We have asked for example about 00:28:00.171 --> 00:28:02.531 the whole thing with the secret 00:28:02.531 --> 00:28:05.650 initiations there in Paris. 00:28:05.890 --> 00:28:07.791 We talked to a few 00:28:07.791 --> 00:28:08.891 yoga students. 00:28:08.891 --> 00:28:10.591 They told us that they were 00:28:10.591 --> 00:28:14.591 going into a kind of initiation 00:28:14.591 --> 00:28:16.210 with Gagorian Bivoularo, who 00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:18.930 was Tantric. 00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:20.890 I have already read it. 00:28:20.890 --> 00:28:22.431 I read this 00:28:22.431 --> 00:28:23.150 in the news. 00:28:23.150 --> 00:28:24.750 Okay, if you said you should 00:28:24.750 --> 00:28:26.390 explain what it was, then you should 00:28:26.390 --> 00:28:27.990 be able to check it out. 00:28:27.990 --> 00:28:28.931 That is the only thing I 00:28:28.931 --> 00:28:30.431 can see. 00:28:30.450 --> 00:28:31.591 So you say it exists 00:28:31.591 --> 00:28:33.471 or does not exist? 00:28:33.471 --> 00:28:34.810 No, no, I do not know. 00:28:34.810 --> 00:28:37.010 I say, when they 00:28:37.010 --> 00:28:38.990 say that such things 00:28:41.770 --> 00:28:42.991 exist, it was 00:28:42.991 --> 00:28:44.251 just that in the confrontation 00:28:44.251 --> 00:28:45.570 that she said it, 00:28:45.570 --> 00:28:46.970 yes I’ve heard it 00:28:46.970 --> 00:28:48.231 must be, but then 00:28:48.231 --> 00:28:50.331 there should 00:28:50.331 --> 00:28:52.250 be evidence. 00:28:52.250 --> 00:28:53.371 She herself can say 00:28:53.371 --> 00:28:55.050 nothing big about it now. 00:28:55.050 --> 00:28:56.491 And then we stopped 00:28:56.491 --> 00:28:58.111 asking, yes, so is this 00:28:58.111 --> 00:28:59.770 there or is it not? 00:29:16.550 --> 00:29:18.930 And then she just said, yes, 00:29:18.930 --> 00:29:19.971 so the official answer 00:29:19.971 --> 00:29:22.291 of Misa is, in Romania, it doesn’ 00:29:22.291 --> 00:29:24.131 t exist, but she can’t 00:29:24.131 --> 00:29:26.411 tell what is happening 00:29:26.411 --> 00:29:29.150 anywhere in the world. 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:36.460 The Misa press spokeswoman says 00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:39.121 she has no doubt that Pivolaru 00:29:39.121 --> 00:29:40.901 is innocent. 00:29:40.901 --> 00:29:42.461 They are completely 00:29:42.461 --> 00:29:44.660 behind him. 00:29:47.570 --> 00:29:50.131 But the fact is, Bivoularo was 00:29:50.131 --> 00:29:51.450 arrested in Paris, 00:29:51.450 --> 00:29:53.430 the prosecutor investigated. 00:29:53.810 --> 00:29:55.671 And now that you 00:29:55.671 --> 00:29:57.350 have published the story, 00:29:57.350 --> 00:29:58.811 is the case over 00:29:58.811 --> 00:30:00.270 for you? 00:30:00.270 --> 00:30:01.551 We will definitely stay 00:30:01.551 --> 00:30:03.630 on the subject. 00:30:03.890 --> 00:30:05.291 It is not now that just 00:30:05.291 --> 00:30:06.990 because he was arrested that 00:30:06.990 --> 00:30:08.291 now the whole organization 00:30:08.291 --> 00:30:09.871 behind it has collapsed 00:30:09.871 --> 00:30:10.791 like a card 00:30:10.791 --> 00:30:12.071 house. 00:30:12.071 --> 00:30:14.411 So that goes on, so for example 00:30:14.411 --> 00:30:15.731 the Romanian yoga school 00:30:15.731 --> 00:30:17.251 Misa, which has such a kind 00:30:17.251 --> 00:30:19.070 of Internet television stations, 00:30:19.070 --> 00:30:20.031 which have only recently 00:30:20.031 --> 00:30:21.551 in the middle of March 00:30:21.551 --> 00:30:23.591 on Bivolaru's birthday, so 00:30:23.591 --> 00:30:25.111 quasi prayed for him 00:30:25.111 --> 00:30:27.271 and organized a six- 00:30:27.271 --> 00:30:29.911 hour meditation with 00:30:29.911 --> 00:30:33.890 spiritual music to honor him. 00:30:33.990 --> 00:30:37.410 The admiration does not stop. 00:30:38.450 --> 00:30:39.950 Christiane, thank you very much. 00:30:39.950 --> 00:30:41.770 Yes, also a lot of thanks. 00:30:43.510 --> 00:30:44.951 If you liked this, 00:30:44.951 --> 00:30:46.091 please take a 00:30:46.091 --> 00:30:47.390 look at us. 00:30:47.390 --> 00:30:49.730 The podcast of the day. 00:30:49.730 --> 00:30:51.251 We report on similar 00:30:51.251 --> 00:30:52.631 interesting research 00:30:52.631 --> 00:30:53.990 from Monday to Friday, such 00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:55.890 as Christiane and Katja. 00:30:56.050 --> 00:30:57.411 We are asked by the 00:30:57.411 --> 00:30:58.971 AID correspondents to 00:30:58.971 --> 00:31:00.610 classify what is happening, 00:31:00.610 --> 00:31:01.931 for example in Israel 00:31:01.931 --> 00:31:04.690 or even in Haiti. 00:31:04.730 --> 00:31:06.511 And we look in depth 00:31:06.511 --> 00:31:08.290 at social phenomena, such 00:31:08.290 --> 00:31:09.950 as Teller Swift. 00:31:09.950 --> 00:31:11.971 You will find FKM just like 00:31:11.971 --> 00:31:13.491 Soulfanger in the ARD 00:31:13.491 --> 00:31:15.871 audiothek and everywhere there 00:31:15.871 --> 00:31:17.371 are podcasts. 00:31:17.450 --> 00:31:19.271 About the Atman Yoga movement 00:31:19.271 --> 00:31:20.951 and the accusations against 00:31:20.951 --> 00:31:23.051 it, Christiane Havranek 00:31:23.051 --> 00:31:25.151 told us in this FKM 00:31:25.151 --> 00:31:26.630 series. 00:31:26.630 --> 00:31:27.971 She has worked with Katja 00:31:27.971 --> 00:31:30.330 Peißen-Petersen on this. 00:31:30.570 --> 00:31:32.751 The author of this episode is Caspar von Au. 00:31:32.751 --> 00:31:34.571 Nicole Ahles and 00:31:34.571 --> 00:31:36.330 Mark Hoffmann. 00:31:36.330 --> 00:31:38.310 Produced by Jakob Böttner, 00:31:38.310 --> 00:31:39.811 Christine Dreyer, Christiane 00:31:39.811 --> 00:31:41.591 Gerhäuser-Kamp, Victor Weresch 00:31:41.591 --> 00:31:43.570 and Adele Mesmer. 00:31:43.630 --> 00:31:45.291 Editorial director Lena Gürtler 00:31:45.291 --> 00:31:46.910 and Fumi Kulip. 00:31:46.910 --> 00:31:48.411 11KM is a production of BR24 00:31:48.411 --> 00:31:51.210 and NDR Info. 00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:53.250 My name is Victoria Koopmann. 00:31:53.270 --> 00:31:54.410 We will meet again soon, 00:31:54.410 --> 00:31:56.670 in our feed. Hi to!